Which Fiesta ST Intercooler did you choose?

[KraZe]

On my bathroom scale:
Stock intercooler: 5 lbs
MAPerformance IC: 15 lbs

So ~+10 lbs at the front

Most aftermarket IC are between 12-18 lbs so the weight difference among them is about that of a burrito and a soda lol

The heaviest IC are probably the J-Line (~20 lbs) and CP-E which they list in their shipping weight as 28 lbs!! (Someone confirm that?) The DHM Race doesn't count because you can't install it without their crash bar and that brings the weight down to only +3 lbs over stock making it the lightest alongside Mountune's.

 

[ron@whoosh]

On my bathroom scale:
Stock intercooler: 5 lbs
MAPerformance IC: 15 lbs

So ~+10 lbs at the front

Most aftermarket IC are between 12-18 lbs so the weight difference among them is about that of a burrito and a soda lol

The heaviest IC are probably the J-Line (~20 lbs) and CP-E which they list in their shipping weight as 28 lbs!! (Someone confirm that?) The DHM Race doesn't count because you can't install it without their crash bar and that brings the weight down to only +3 lbs over stock making it the lightest alongside Mountune's.

shipping weight is dimensional weight (carton)

the actual weight is 16.5 lbs

 

[OCS12]

Mountune FMIC = 7.5 lbs= see post # 196 http://www.fiestastforum.com/forum/threads/10327-Accel-Junky-s-Magnetic-Build-Thread/page20



You can probably do a search to find the weight for the Mishimoto direct fit if it isn't in that thread, I swear I have seen it somewhere before, thought it was around 11 lbs. Nobody has posted datalogs that I am aware of for the Mishimoto direct fit, but people claim temps only rise 10-15 on 3rd/4th gear pulls. While it is an extra 3.5 lbs over the Mountune, it seems to be much more effective. Maybe [MENTION=1848]mishimoto[/MENTION] can confirm the weight for you.

Here's a heavily stripped down datalog (most data removed out of respect for tuner) from one of my 3rd gear logging pulls with the direct fit Mishimoto FMIC. Charge air temps rose from 71.1 to 87.4 during the pull, then start falling again as soon as I lifted.

 

[Accel Junky]

I finally got a chance to process my logs with the Mountune FMIC. Here's the charge temp rise with a 3rd gear pull on Stratified 93 oct tune vs the charge temps with the stock intercooler and Cobb tune. Seems pretty high.

90.9 F Starting to 117.7 F ending for STOCK FMIC (26.8F rise or 29.4% increase in temperature over the pull)
76.6 F Starting to 111.2 F ending for MOUNTUNE black FMIC (34.6F rise 45.1% increase in temperature over the pull)

So the Mountune is significantly worse than the stock FMIC. I just don't see how this is possible unless the higher boost of the Stratified tune is causing significant charge temp increases that overcome the Mountune advantages over the stock FMIC.

I don't recall the Stratified tune on the stock FMIC to have had any higher temp rises than the Mountune, but I forgot to log it.

Thoughts? I went with the Mountune for track/weight purposes but if it is worse than the stock intercooler on a 3rd gear pull I'll put the stock one back in or go for a heavier bar/plate.

Stock FMIC and Cobb 93oct Stage 1 Tune:

Mountune FMIC and Stratified Tune:

 

[marc89gti]

Which Fiesta ST intercooler did you choose?

I finally got a chance to process my logs with the Mountune FMIC. Here's the charge temp rise with a 3rd gear pull on Stratified 93 oct tune vs the charge temps with the stock intercooler and Cobb tune. Seems pretty high.

90.9 F Starting to 117.7 F ending for STOCK FMIC (26.8F rise or 29.4% increase in temperature over the pull)
76.6 F Starting to 111.2 F ending for MOUNTUNE black FMIC (34.6F rise 45.1% increase in temperature over the pull)

So the Mountune is significantly worse than the stock FMIC. I just don't see how this is possible unless the higher boost of the Stratified tune is causing significant charge temp increases that overcome the Mountune advantages over the stock FMIC.

I don't recall the Stratified tune on the stock FMIC to have had any higher temp rises than the Mountune, but I forgot to log it.

Thoughts? I went with the Mountune for track/weight purposes but if it is worse than the stock intercooler on a 3rd gear pull I'll put the stock one back in or go for a heavier bar/plate.

Stock FMIC and Cobb 93oct Stage 1 Tune:

Mountune FMIC and Stratified Tune:

If it was me I would personally contact mountune and see what they say. Maybe somehow you have a defective unit? For myself the highest I saw on my mountune intercooler increase was (ambient 28c or 82f) 18f or 10c on a hard pull from 2nd gear to 4th gear, but once in 4th I backed off the the throttle, but then again I never really did any trending with stock intercooler and from area to area with temps and humidity can affect results.

You probably already checked your hoses for loose connections, but if you had that think you would see lower boost


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[vadymie]

Thanks guys for data logs and weight updates! Very useful piece of information.

I'm staying with stock FMIC until something significantly more efficient appears within 5 LBS max over stock FMIC weight budget. Not willing to tolerate more weight added to nose of the car.

 

[M-Sport fan]

shipping weight is dimensional weight (carton)

the actual weight is 16.5 lbs

THANKS for that, and it is not too bad weight wise, for the highest capacity stock mount IC out there and one of the highest short of the DHM Race & crashbar setup!

 

[ron@whoosh]

Thanks guys for data logs and weight updates! Very useful piece of information.

I'm staying with stock FMIC until something significantly more efficient appears within 5 LBS max over stock FMIC weight budget. Not willing to tolerate more weight added to nose of the car.

do you think that 5 lbs or even 10 lbs is noticeable?

like having your washer fluid reservoir filled vs. empty
or maybe the driver weighing 155 lbs vs a 200 lb driver

the benefits of a well designed intercooler over the OEM would be worth carrying +30 lbs on the front of the FIST without a second though

my .02

 

[M-Sport fan]

I just don't see how this is possible unless the higher boost of the Stratified tune is causing significant charge temp increases that overcome the Mountune advantages over the stock FMIC.

^^^IF this is the case, I am SOOOO happy I bought the CP-E IC, since I plan on doing the Strat Flash tune, and want to have it FULLY 'covered' as far as CATs go.

I will eventually find some other way to offset the front end weight gain (carbon fiber hood, whatever) I will incur with this top line IC.

 

[vadymie]

do you think that 5 lbs or even 10 lbs is noticeable?
like having your washer fluid reservoir filled vs. empty
or maybe the driver weighing 155 lbs vs a 200 lb driver

I choosed to buy Fiesta over other cars with more power under the hood not because of price, but because I enjoy how Fiesta handles, and weight distribution plays an important role in this aspect. Driver's weight is not that important, because it's applied to almost center of the wheelbase. Just like Accel Junky did, I am also planning to get rid of washer reservoir, fog lamps, and maybe even save another extra 14lbs by putting on Seibon CF OEM style hood for track days.

I guess for me it's also hard to accept the fact, that even double weight of Stock IC I cannot get a decent improve of cooling capacity. I understand, that Stock IC is partially made of plastic (connectors on sides) for weight and maybe price saving purposes, and those always gets replaced with a metal or alloy in aftermarket IC to be able to handle more boost, be more durable overall, or maybe also because it's easier to manufacture all alloy product rather than combined plastic/alloy product. Anyway, so some weight increase goes to replacement of plastic with alloy, and I am totally fine to gain few pounds for the benefit of durability (shouldn't me more than ~1lbs extra each side alloy vs plastic, right?). But then all extra weight should be spent to get extra cooling capacity, and as far as I understand the mechanics - there isn't much options: an IC can be either a little deeper, or a little higher/wider (but not much, to stay fit into stock location). And in fact, a limitation factor there is how stock bumper is designed. None talks here to replace stock FiST bumper to redesign airflow amount that comes into IC. So the airflow of stock bumper is the limitation factor how big you can make IC. What's the point of making IC significantly larger in dimensions, if those extra inches doesn't get airflow, right?

So I don't expect a direct fit aftermarket IC to be hugely more effective over Stock IC, and this is why I won't tolerate huge increase in weight (everything over double the weight I consider huge).

 

[Quasar]

I choosed to buy Fiesta over other cars with more power under the hood not because of price, but because I enjoy how Fiesta handles, and weight distribution plays an important role in this aspect. Driver's weight is not that important, because it's applied to almost center of the wheelbase. Just like Accel Junky did, I am also planning to get rid of washer reservoir, fog lamps, and maybe even save another extra 14lbs by putting on Seibon CF OEM style hood for track days.

Do you fully understand how much a 10lb increase at the nose would actually affect the handling of the car? You are only the second person I have seen bring this up. I'm not trying to be confrontational, I am just wondering what you are basing this on, for my own (and others reading this thread) benefit. I haven't seen anything substantive to support that adding 10lbs to the nose of the car would impact the handling, but if it exists and is a reality I (I'm sure others as well) would love to see it.

I understand in theory how adding extra weight would throw off the balance/handling, but I'm wondering how much 10lbs is in terms of a percentage increase over the front of the car actually is (engine, lights, etc.), and how much this would actually impact the handling. Based upon all of the information on this forum, an intercooler is without a doubt one of the best performance upgrades you can do (I am on stock, and see charge temps rise over 40*F). I love the handling of the car and certainly wouldn't want to negatively affect it, so I am just wondering what you are basing your choice on and if you can share any substantive information with the rest of the forum.

 

[OCS12]

I'm with Quasar on this one. There's plenty of places to lose weight on our cars, but the intercooler isn't the right place.

 

[vadymie]

Quasar,

For certain I don't currently have any precise math simulation nor real world tests of how much cornering G my Fiesta can handle on same tires in stock vs with a 10-pound plate added to nose of the car. Logical sense tells me there will be difference, not a big for sure from 10lbs savings on FMIC alone, but it's there. And the more you save, 10, 20.. 30 lbs the more obvious this difference becomes and at some point you will be able to feel it even in regular daily driving mode, not just on a track.

I am newbie to Fiesta, and from what I read on the forum, I do understand that IC is one of first upgrades Fiesta needs. This is why I follow this thread so closely. I also understand, that for people for whom straight line performance is much more important than cornering, there is already plenty of good options of aftermarket IC. Heck, very few cars get that much attention from aftermarket suppliers as Fiesta ST and I happy to see that. Most, if not all aftermarket suppliers do target their products for "street", not "track" consumers, and from this point of view, their products are very good.

Looking at different IC options, comparing volume, data logs and weight, I have a feeling that Mountune's IC is the lightest is because Mountune as a company, according to my understanding, has some close connections to Ford factory team, and so their IC product is more weight-focused and more performance-conservative. Just my personal feeling.

Not trying to say IC upgrade is not important just trying to bring weight issue to the topic, that does not seem to be discussed well enough in the beginning. Would be awesome, if topic author could update first post with weight information, additional to existing dimensions information.

EDIT: Btw, I should probably make a note, that my Fiesta ST is Euro 3-door one, not USDM model. I daily drive it and race it in Ukraine (Eastern Europe), not in California. The climate in Ukraine is colder overall, and road condition is not always great. So extra nose weight also means harder to avoid road bumps and holes, and more chance to damage front wheels/suspension. As result, my thinking and priorities are less than 1% of everyone else on this forum.

 

[OCS12]

Vadymie, I think you're overthinking things. First off, ditch the mindset that big intercooler customers are the straightline crowd. If you're only focused on a 1/4 mile run, you've already crossed the finish line by the time serious heat soak sets in. It's the track cars that put the most focus on big intercoolers. Yet, oddly, handling is most important to the track cars, and they're the ones running the biggest intercoolers.

Yes, the weight of the Fiesta ST is a big part of why it's so much fun. However, it's the power to weight ratio that makes it so quick. Heatsoak the OEM FMIC, and your power to weight ratio plummets. A heatsoaked ST might as well be a base model Fiesta with an aftermarket suspension. As already mentioned, something as simple as draining the wiper fluid tank can pretty much make up the difference between the crappy OEM FMIC and a quality aftermarket solution. I sure can't tell the difference between when that tank is full versus empty. It's worth it to have all the power, all the time.

 

[Accel Junky]

If it was me I would personally contact mountune and see what they say. Maybe somehow you have a defective unit? For myself the highest I saw on my mountune intercooler increase was (ambient 28c or 82f) 18f or 10c on a hard pull from 2nd gear to 4th gear, but once in 4th I backed off the the throttle, but then again I never really did any trending with stock intercooler and from area to area with temps and humidity can affect results.

You probably already checked your hoses for loose connections, but if you had that think you would see lower boost


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Response from Mountune:

Thanks for your email. Without a direct before and after comparison there's not much I can say about the temps. I've attached some of our own data for reference.

Sure, 34 degrees isn't a huge increase with a boosted car. Remember, this is not a bar and plate core. This is tube and fin and is going to allow for proper engine cooling in all kinds of driving. It will not be the lowest temp delta, but it will be consistent and allow for high speed applications where others will fail due to compromised engine cooling.

I'm not sure what to make of the data chart they sent. Looks like (according to AnT6, blue lines on bottom) the Mountune post-intercooler temp is substantially lower than stock (assuming 1 is Mountune and 2 is stock). I don't feel like my stock intercooler was hitting anything higher than the Mountune. I guess what sucks is that I would need to take the damned bumper off again and do a back to back comparison with both intercoolers find out for sure how they compare in my application.

 

[vadymie]

OCS12,

You might be right and I am over concerned about the weight. But how we can expect significantly better IC efficiency without improving airflow.. I mean without changing the bumper. Just because aftermarket IC use more efficient core design?

If we need a big intercooler, we need a bigger hole in front bumper.. like a UK based company PumaSpeed did with their RS-style concept.



Compare that to stock and I just don't see much room for a big intercooler.

 

[vadymie]

This is tube and fin and is going to allow for proper engine cooling in all kinds of driving. It will not be the lowest temp delta, but it will be consistent and allow for high speed applications where others will fail due to compromised engine cooling.

This is a great response, I think, from Mountune. They understand, that by making intercooler take more space in front, we take away this space from radiator, and while you will see lower temp increase after IC, and you feel happy and boost your engine even more.. meanwhile your engine cooling really becomes a problem. That's basically the case with RS style bumper on the photo above. PumaSpeed took significant space away from radiator (comparing to stock) to add a big intercooler and additional oil cooler, and surelly they will get more short-period power, but will it survive 20-30 minute track session or a several hours of driving at speeds of over 130 mph?

I am not technical enough to judge difference in efficiency between "tube and fin" and "bar and plate" type of core design, but Mountune's response also makes sense to me.

 

[OCS12]

OCS12,

You might be right and I am over concerned about the weight. But how we can expect significantly better IC efficiency without improving airflow.. I mean without changing the bumper. Just because aftermarket IC use more efficient core design?

If we need a big intercooler, we need a bigger hole in front bumper.. like a UK based company PumaSpeed did with their RS-style concept.

View attachment 12342

Compare that to stock and I just don't see much room for a big intercooler.

View attachment 12341

Although a bigger hole up front would help, I think you're misunderstanding how the bigger aftermarket intercoolers work. The air has to pass all the way through. That means the thicker design of the aftermarket options have more surface area to dissipate heat. You're thinking of intercoolers as two dimensional, when you need to see them as three dimensional. I've also never heard of anyone with factory fit FMIC's interfering with the radiator. I've certainly seen no difference.

 

[M-Sport fan]

Sure, 34 degrees isn't a huge increase with a boosted car. Remember, this is not a bar and plate core. This is tube and fin and is going to allow for proper engine cooling in all kinds of driving. It will not be the lowest temp delta, but it will be consistent and allow for high speed applications where others will fail due to compromised engine cooling.

^^^Is this response from Mountune implying that the tube and fin construction allows more airflow to pass through their IC, and into the radiator than a bar and plate construction IC, and therefore much less chance of ENGINE overheating??

IF the above is true, and the DHM Race IC is a bar and plate construction<-IS it?? (what I call 'stacked plate'), with it covering SO much of the radiator, am I correct in thinking it would help overheat the engine into limp home mode after a short open track session?

Someone PLEASE come on here and refute this!!

 

[marc89gti]

Sure, 34 degrees isn't a huge increase with a boosted car. Remember, this is not a bar and plate core. This is tube and fin and is going to allow for proper engine cooling in all kinds of driving. It will not be the lowest temp delta, but it will be consistent and allow for high speed applications where others will fail due to compromised engine cooling.

^^^Is this response from Mountune implying that the tube and fin construction allows more airflow to pass through their IC, and into the radiator than a bar and plate construction IC, and therefore much less chance of ENGINE overheating??

IF the above is true, and the DHM Race IC is a bar and plate construction<-IS it?? (what I call 'stacked plate'), with it covering SO much of the radiator, am I correct in thinking it would help overheat the engine into limp home mode after a short open track session?

Someone PLEASE come on here and refute this!!

There was a guy on one of the FiST forums that installed the DHM intercooler with crash bar and I think during his YouTube video he he say 20-40f increase in coolant temps during hard driving then before the install. As a result of reduced air flow to the radiator he installed the Mishimoto radiator which brought temps just below stock levels. Yes the DHM intercooler gave really low Delta temps for the intercooler but the coolant system paid the price. Again the difference between bar and plate (DHM) and tube and fin (mountune and mishimoto)

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