Not for sale turbo upgrade.

[Sourskittle]

I've researched it to death... I've already made some mistakes... But I want it all.... With all due respect to ATP, DHM, and 2J racings big turbo kits, i haven't seen a "big turbo kit" yet that I feel like I would be happy daily driving as far as boost response. Being men ( mostly ), we don't like to compromise. And I'm as hard headed as any other man ( likely more so ). But... With a 1.6L, I don't think I have much choice. Peak power ? DHM has it all. But while there is not an official price on the kit that I know of, I do know its out of my range by about $3000 at least, lol. That's not saying its not totally worth it, simply stating its out of my price range and that 375whp turbo is not personally what I want as regards to boost response or power. I've driven my car with the wastegate wide open (wired open) and its a freaking dog without 5psi lol.

ATP seems like a good option at first. Reasonably affordable. But... Honestly, their SMALLER turbo's disappoint me on both ends. Not really responsive, not making great power either. The larger turbos do make good power, but still fall short of what I think I'd personally want for response. In the end, I'd end up with $3000 in something that I'm not haply with... And yea... Its out of my price range still too, lol.

What do do.... Well... I can buy a stock TD05 off a evo X for $350 that will make 350whp ( on an evo ). But again... Too laggy on a 1.6L.

I think the real issue is the aftermarket turbos. Seems they are not interested in building a supremely optimized turbo for insane powerband for a 1.6L... If they are, I'm not aware of it.

Lets cut to the chase... In a world of unlimited funds, I'd be on the phone with Dynamic racing. They build a turbocharger for the 3000GT/stealth crowd that uses a Titanium turbine wheel/shaft in a TD04HL mistu turbo. That motor is 1.5L x 2. And these turbos have awesome response and make 600-650 all-wheel horsepower on some pretty big ( all be it weak ) running gear. Google DR650 with dynamic racing.

Ok... We ( at least I ) don't live in that world. Dynamic had those turbine wheels/shafts made one-off custom and no doubt pay'd dearly for it. From what I hear, they won't sell you one turbo or just the turbine shaft. So even if you were crazy enough to pay $300-$600 for a single turbine shaft, its not an option.

But.... The rest of the td04 line of turbo definitely is an option. Here is the basics. Srt4 caliber came stock with a td04 turbo and 300hp. The srt4 neon can make 300whp on a stock turbo, yep, td04. Hyundi sonata ? 274hp stock. Yep... TD04 turbo.

Td04 turbos have some options. Here are the main two I was focusing on.

A) WRX td04L-13T. Its the second smallest turbine wheel of the td04 family and it was instant boost on my low compression 1.6L civic. Even after a larger compressor wheel was added and a turbine wheel clip, spool up WAS NOT A ISSUE. Our higher compression ratio and insanely advanced ECU mean this turbo would act pretty similar to our stock turbo on a factory tune.
This is how they stack up in some ways...

Fiesta ST turbine shaft vs td04L turbine

Same

Wrx 6cm turbine housing vs fist

Volvo 7cm angled td04L turbine housing.

Fist compressor wheel vs tiny stock wrx 13T compressor wheel

Fist comp wheel in a tiny stock wrx comp housing (wrx wheel is the larger one)

Fist turbine wheel in a wrx L 6cm turbine housing

Pretty scary... The td04L-13T is a baby turbo.

 

[Sourskittle]

Enter the TD04HL....

The HL is the biggest turbine you can buy for the TD04 family. I can easily upgrade my wrx turbo to a 19T compressor wheel and comp housing and be into this turbo REALLY cheap. But here is where it gets interesting.
These turbos are not only laughed at, but most consider them "old school". I'd tend to agree with that.
But... The aftermarket has carried this turbo along. Greddy built a turbo kit for the 96-99 civic ( aka D16Y8 ). It used a 19T compressor wheel and HL turbine shaft in a 8.5cm housing. This turbo has been proven many times now on a single overhead cam 1996 civic to make 300whp and 300++ torque on 93octane. Google it, I'll wait. Lol. Compared to the ecoboost 1.6L, the old honda 1.6L isn't in the same league really. We can certainly spool any given turbo faster. Greddy snuck in a small detail. Volvo and saab had been using td04HL-18T and 19T turbos for a while... Greddys secret weapon was the 9-blade turbine wheel. It spools faster and flows more air vs the volvo and saab based 12 blade wheels. Didn't take long, but you can now buy a greddy 9-blade wheel very easily and reasonably priced in the aftermarket now.

Thanx to volvo.... The td04 can now be bought commonly in configurations rated at 400hp. And I even found one converted to ball-bearing and rated for 420hp (owens development in the UK ). Volvo guys have made 320-350whp on pump gas, and again, pretty low rent ecu/tuning setups. They typically do this running around 24psi on a 2.3L-2.5L engine. While we can't match there displacement, I think we are light years ahead on efficiency, fueling, and tuning, not mention, unlike the volvo guys, we are not scared to make more power than the rods can handle ( are we? Lol ). They are engine stress limited is what I'm getting at.

So... Having it all.... Volvo based td04... They come in 2 basic sizes. Td04L on the older L based turbos in the 13G/13T size compressors. And the newer 1999-2000+ td04HL-13T(and larger). The volvo turbine housing info is extremely murky. Seems like not even the volvo guys know what cars of what years come with what turbine housing. There are 5 that I know of. But only 2 that we need to think about. Those two are the angled 6cm and 7cm turbine housings. They come in straight versions as well, but the angled ones flow better. And the 5th one is the one pictured above, which happens to fit right on my wrx turbo as well ( remember L-turbine wheel only fits L housings ). In my case... I'm going with the biggest of all walks. The HL that comes in a volvo is a 12-blade. There is an 11-blade; but... Seems about the same. The 9-blade is what I will be using ( aka greddy turbine wheel/shaft ). The 9-blade is said to spool 500rpm sooner vs a normal 12-blade and flow more. That is ultimately what lead to move upto the HL over the L. The L vs the 9-blade may very well have the same spool time, while the HL will out flow the L by a large margin. Am I sure? Its time for pictures isn't it...

Google if you want more, lol.

 

[Sourskittle]

So the full turbo build will be a volvo based turbo. 9 blade turbine. Upgraded bearings and thrust plate. No turbine wheel clipping. A 19T compressor wheel ( more on that in a second ). A 20T is available. A larger compressor housing that is NOT MACHINED to fit a 19T compressor wheel, but a housing matched to the 19T. And of course; the biggest volvo turbine housing, the angled 7cm2. In theory, I could use a greddy civic turbo kit turbine housing, which is bigger at 8.5cm, BUT has you'd imagine, the greddy civic turbo kits are far less plentiful vs an old volvo junkyard turbo, lol.

The volvo turbo also integrates the bov into the compressor housing just like our stock turbo. I'm willing to look into MAKING/FORCING our stock bov fit, but I'm not counting on it, it would just be cool.

The great thing about these turbos is they are very customizable. If this turbo has too much lag, I can simply buy a volvo turbine housing for $40-$45 that is a 6cm vs the larger 7cm. If its still too laggy, I can always drop the compressor size back down. Not enough power? The 20T is still ready in billet and oem mistu form on the shelf. 20T isn't enough? We have a billet wheel at is 4mm bigger than a 20T that can be machined in.

Just can't live with the HL turbine ? The wrx turbo is plentiful and cheaply upgraded and the volvo L housing in the pics above can be bought for $35 on ebay.

Sure sure sure... You read all that and your wondering... This guy is talking about all this, but how the hell is he going to bolt a volvo or subby turbo to a fist manifold.

Step 1: external wastegate. On top of adding 20-40whp on setups with poor or small turbine housings or turbine wheels, external wastegate on the stock ported manifold means no internal wastegate rod or canister or brackets to fumble with. We will have an external gate on a cyborg in the next couple weeks ( waiting on parts ).
Step #2 Adaptor plate
I used an adaptor on other setups, and on top of being cheap, it worked AWESOME. No shame in using an adaptor plate ( extremely small chance I may just v-band both the volvo turbine housing and fist manifold, but I doubt it due to cost and that def limits options on changing housings or even the manifold later ).
Water lines will remain in the stock location. Oil return? Guess what... The stock fist oil return bolts right to a td04. Same flange and all. The stock oil feed will need to be adapted, and I can live with that. Downpipe will have to be custom. Volvo downpipe flanges are plentiful and cheap ( essp compared to fist flanges ).

So... Should have a turbo that it capable of 300whp on pump gas. Its overly laggy, and if it is, lag can be reduced.

Bad news is... I'm not selling this or any parts. I'm just building it for me, but I wanted to share and this is where it starts. It anyone wants info, I'm more than happy to offer what I know.

Think you have a better turbo for the job ? Shoot. I'm open minded on this one, just keep in mind, I don't want a diesel turbo T88 or a 3cylinder turbo that is the same size as the fist turbo, lol.

Scarey numbers ? You can buy a td04HL-19T with a 7cm housing for like $600 on ebay !!! Yes... You'll have to do some work ( goodness forbid !! ), but you'ld have a 360+hp capable turbo for 35% the cost of a EFR.

Volvo bs subby, which one would you want to work with ? Lol

 

[Izzy]

Very interesting...will be following closely

 

[MOFiST]

This is gonna be a fun ride. I hope you post plenty a photos along the way. I'm sure this thread can spurn more innovation. Although your parts bin is gonna be bigger than probably all of us I imagine.

 

[Hijinx]

Dis gon be good!

 

[BoostBumps]

....I haven't seen a "big turbo kit" yet that I feel like I would be happy daily driving as far as boost response...

Amen...good info btw...

 

[Joker328]

I only hope that one day I can understand half of whatever the hell you were talking about. It sounds exciting though.

 

[Sourskittle]

This is an example of a TD04HL with a 19T compressor
They are all over ebay. This one is $565 shipped. The matching turbine housing is $135 shipped. Very capable 340-360whp.

I'm going a different route myself, but of course, I have access to a turbo shop, lol.

I may still end up with $600 in a turbo, but I won't be worried that it will come apart due to build quality.

But search td04HL-19T or td04HL-20T and you guys will get an idea of
What I'm looking at.

The 19T compressor map is more or less the same as a Small 16G dsm turbo ( td05H ). But the 19T has better response.

 

[FunkyKowal]

Once you have this one build I want your Cyborg...

 

[Izzy]

I'll pay 1 dollar over highest bid for that Cyborg.

 

[Hijinx]

There will be a Cyborg up for sale sooner than his

 

[Izzy]

There will be a Cyborg up for sale sooner than his

Then PM me when it does!

 

[kjohn09e]

If only I knew what you all were referring to with the cyborg thing.

 

[Sourskittle]

Actually guys, my cyborg is already spoken for
A friend of mine asked me to sell it to him about a month ago. I promised it to him, but it will be up for sale if that falls through. In the mean time, Hijinx turbo is the latest version version with all the goodies. Not sure what he's gonna ask for it, but he's always been pretty reasonable with me on things.

I'm doing an external wastegate on a customers manifold, then I have a manifold to port for another customer (both already paid for, so they come before me), THEN I'll be doing a port job and external wastegate for my car and I'll swap back to the stock turbo while I'm mocking up everything for this setup as far as oil lines, mounting etc.

I'm very excited about the cyborg we are doing with an external wastegate ( it will also be paired with DHM big intercooler and a big name tuner ).

Do plan on making this painfully picture rich ( as always ). And I'd like to have somewhat of a reference for people that may choose the same or similar route down the road.

 

[Sourskittle]

If only I knew what you all were referring to with the cyborg thing.

http://www.fiestastforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2857
Pretty neat setup

 

[hquakers]

What about a VF series turbo? I had a VF34 on my 2.0 Subaru and made just over 300/300 to the wheels. Still spools pretty quickly and makes boost past the point of a TD04.

 

[Sourskittle]

What about a VF series turbo? I had a VF34 on my 2.0 Subaru and made just over 300/300 to the wheels. Still spools pretty quickly and makes boost past the point of a TD04.

It makes boost past the point of the td04 "L" 19T. The thing is... Subby's don't use the HL turbine wheel or the bigger 7cm turbine housing. I think ultimately, the TD04HL-19T (or 20T) with the bigger 7cm housing will actually make better power. But that being said, I'm pretty quick to admit, I'm no expert on VF turbo's, but I do know the ones that are capable of good power, generally still cost a good amount of money because those are GENERALLY of the STi's 2.5L, correct? Strangely, evo turbos are cheap, so maybe STi turbo's would be too.

One more bit of honesty..... I get angry EVERYTIME I look at that subby flange; and then.... I look at the downpipe flange. Who the hell came up with those !!? I delt with that subby flange on my civic when I built the adaptor plate for it, and... Yep.. I hated then too, lol. If I was using a td04L, I'd for sure use the volvo L turbine housing vs the subby one, lol.

PS: 300whp is pretty awesome on a non-big turbo on a 2.0L subbie. Props on that one. Lots of people take for granted the driveline loss from awd in the evo, 3000gt, STi. Some of the fastest evo's from a stop would get destoryed by my srt4 from a roll ( and vise-versa, but worse, lol ), and it really showed me to make 300whp in an AWD car, its really is much harder vs a 2wd car.

The VF turbo$ u$e ball-bearng center sections don't they? I'm completely un-sure of which VF it was, but in my research I actually found two different wrx guys that had gone from stock 13T's to VF-series to a TD04L-19T and they both agreed they felt about the same on the topend, but the 19T did way better with response/spool. I remember reading that because at the time I was thinking "the 19T has less lag than a ball bearing smaller frame turbo?".

If I knew more about the VF, maybe that's a better choice? I wonder if it has an many inter-changeable options...

 

[FunkyKowal]

@ Hijinx remember I was first...

 

[Sourskittle]

Quick google and it reveled a good amount of debate about td04 vs VF34/VF35 turbo. The TD04L is supposed to come on faster, but falls a bit on the topend. But keep in mind, that is a turbo off a 2.5L engine, I'd be bolting onto a 1.6L..... Wait.... What does the volvo TD04HL-19T comes from???? A 2.5L 5 cylinder. Lol.

As far as not keeping up in the upper rpms, just because it dies a bit on a 2.0L at 7,000rpm ( or dies a lot on a 2.5L) doesn't mean we'd see/feel the samething on our 1.6L. I think we can spool a turbo for a 2.0L or 2.5L, but airflow demand I doubt we'll match.

I'll read up on the VF34/35 though. Good suggestion